Disrupting Business Process Management



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Podcast: How To Transform Your Business With An Acorn Approach


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Read on below for the full transcript of the podcast. 

Olivia Bushe [00:00]
Thanks for joining us today for an exclusive panel of FlowForma customers who are taking control of the way they work, collaborating more efficiently, and eradicating silos to accelerate digital transformation. My name is Olivia Bushe and I’m the CEO at FlowForma, and I’ll be your host for today. I’m delighted to be joined today by two FlowForma customers, Carolynne Heron, Director of Corporate Services at Morgan Construction, and Lindsay Evans the Project Management Team Coordinator at EML Payments. Before we begin, perhaps you’d like to give a little background into your organizations and your roles there?

Carolynne Heron [00:50]
Hello from Edmonton Alberta, Canada. As Olivia mentioned I’m Director of Corporate Services at Morgan Construction, we are an earthworks company so we move dirt. We have about 750 employees right now and growing every day, which is why I’m here today - the solution around digitizing and helping us be scalable. We are predominantly in Western Canada but we do a ton of work in Northern, in the mining sector and oil and gas work. I oversee safety, HR, and IT. IT is not my default from a technical standpoint, but I’m so pleased to tell our story and help you understand how we got here.

Olivia Bushe [01:40]
Thanks, Carolynne, and Lindsay?

Lindsay Evans [01:45]
Yeah, so I’m working for EML Payments we’re a Fintech company focused on making payments more agile, a lot quicker, move funds more securely and globally. So I’m based in Ireland and we have a good number of European offices, as well as being in the states and Australia as well. I think being part of a Fintech company, being agile, and looking for the next innovative thing, this digitization was sort of the next step for us and I’m really excited to talk about our experiences with that as well.

Olivia Bushe [02:27]
Great, thanks Ladies, we look forward to hearing more about your journey. We’re just going to move on then to talk about why do organizations need to accelerate process automation now. So, maybe 10 years ago, digital process automation was seen as a nice to have and not a necessity, but in today’s environment with COVID and lockdown, this has pushed digitization forward by 5 years - all the experts are telling us. It would be interesting for our listeners to hear why, Carolynne, you considered process automation as a necessity for Morgan at this time.

Carolynne Heron [03:17]
So, it’s interesting you talk about the 5 years of advancement with COVID, it was about 5 years ago that I never could have imagined that we’d be where we are. We were doing all of our recruiting and onboarding on a literal whiteboard… up on the wall, and the manager was very clear that only he could erase things - and really, that’s great if you’re hiring 1 or 2 or 5 people but fast forward to 2020 when we had 100 or 200 people on the board, and we need to have good people we need to have good processes and it needs to be scalable and sustainable. I remember sitting in this old office with this manager arguing about the fact that we should at least get it on an excel spreadsheet - and so then we had this massive excel spreadsheet into you know double Z columns and 14-18 different users at any one time on a shared sheet… there’s lots of risk with that.

Olivia Bushe [04:27]
The thought of that is just making me recoil, Carolynne!

Carolynne Heron [03:17]
I know! And it evolved from a whiteboard to just getting it on excel. Then in 2020, saying ‘please trust me, we need to take it another step, we need to stop manually entering in every single cell’, touching cells more than once, whether its emails or phone numbers - let’s work smarter, not harder. That’s really how we got here, thankfully we’re thinking bigger and we’re allowing greater efficiencies across our team by having multilayers of hiring hundreds of people with pretty amazing reporting.

Olivia Bushe [05:19]
It’s really interesting that you mention that you did have the processes already on a spreadsheet because some people do think that digitizing their processes does mean email and spreadsheet, but they don’t understand how much more the automation can bring to things.

Carolynne Heron [05:39]
Absolutely. When you have current tasks happening with different stakeholders working towards a common goal - how great is it when it's working in tandem with real-time reporting to tell you: here's your status report, this is how you’re reporting - either on par or not and if not, we can close the gaps a lot quicker and it’s way more efficient and tighter.

Olivia Bushe [06:15]
So, I suppose Lindsay, Forrester Research would say that the top reasons for digitizing and automating is to increase productivity and to improve employee and customer experiences, and I was just wondering, would that align with your experiences at EML, and is that one of the reasons that you moved to process automation?

Lindsay Evans [06:45]
Yeah, I would definitely agree with that for sure. I think productivity for our employees and then overall customer experience is at the forefront of what we’re trying to focus on. It was a really interesting time for us because EML acquired a number of different businesses across Europe and we were kind of all coming together, they all came with their own established processes, all excel based. It was very much like ‘this is how this company does it’ and ‘this is how this company does it’. We really needed something that was going to allow us to come together as one team, and keep that level of productivity up as well as delivering to customers on a consistent basis, while also being aware that these new acquisitions would bring in a lot more new businesses and that we would need to scale to that. So I think our main focus for us was to get a consistent procedure that we could use going forward, but also recognizing that it was never going to be a status process for us, that it was going to have to constantly change, for us as a Fintech company which is constantly evolving, and also with the needs of our clients and as we learned to work together. So there were quite a few ways we wanted to bring this out in our digitization process, but the main thing was learning to work together with a lot of moving parts and it’s definitely a learning curve for a lot of us, but the level of productivity is something we’ve really been trying to hold on to.

Olivia Bushe [08:39]
Yeah, you needed something that was agile that could move and grow and change with the business.

Lindsay Evans [08:45]
Yep, exactly, and we’ve definitely found that since we started, we built it based on some of our needs but we really needed that to be more of a holistic approach to cover all of the different entities, our own business focus, and trying to make it one that was fit for purpose for everyone.

Olivia Bushe [09:07]
Thank you for that. One thing I wanted to draw attention to was that for us that it was very difficult for us to relay to people the cost of doing nothing. So that delaying digitization is actually costing people time and money. Everything isn’t going to stop if you don’t digitize tomorrow, so it’s hard to quantify that, could you give your input to this as customers who have gone through that and have seen the results? What would you say to people out there who aren’t treating it as an imperative task?

Carolynne Heron [10:00]
I would say that you don’t know what you don’t know. You just have to start. We're seeing it throughout the world, we had walkmans, to Discmans to smartphones or if you think about the camera, this happens quickly, and as a business, if we don’t innovate and get ahead of it, we will be behind for sure. I don’t know what the cost is but the opportunity cost could be missed because you were so behind in times

Lindsay Evans [10:40]
I would completely agree with that, we can all get really comfortable in what we were doing and the way it’s always been done that we don’t really realize the potential behind it. Again, the immediate cost might not be obvious but you can see the value and productivity that come out of that.

Olivia Bushe [11:00]
So following on from that Lindsay, what would you say were the key indicators for EML to adopt a solution like FlowForma, when we talk to our customers they say there are several indicators that highlight the need for digital process automation, so, what would you say were the key indicators at EML Payments?

Lindsay Evans [11:35]
The process we put in place first but our client onboarding process, and given the highly regulated nature of our business there are so many people working together on each project and we really needed a solution that would work across the board. There is that need for truth, the need for reporting, and the need for transparency so that we’re not reliant on email chains and so there isn't a risk of missing data. The driving Force other dimensions while we're bringing these systems these multiple different systems that were maybe not quite fit for purpose anyway together to find that one solution that was our biggest driving factor and that we weren't doing this just because it's what's always been done. That comes with a bit of Fear and a bit of hesitancy and rightly so, change is quite scary and people know how to use Excel and they know how to rely on it, But I think you need to really invest in that innovation to grow and to do that.

Olivia Bushe [12:59]
So that makes sense to me, Carolynne, was that what you saw at Morgan, or what were your indicators?

Carolynne Heron [13:09]
It was actually very similar to Lindsay's experience at EML. Just when you think about building trust with your internal stakeholders and your customers, You know how not better to do it than through accountability and transparency, the reporting has been huge for us. It's really interesting because as you organize your data and get it better and better So powerful because the organization just wants more they want more information, it's a very efficient way of doing a deeper dive and getting the whole picture or even a high-level snapshot Another big indicator for us was that we needed more reporting more indication Quicker faster at all times of the day 24/7 And we got it through this

Olivia Bushe [14:01].
Yeah so I think what you're saying is you have so much data in the organization not really using it with any intelligence until you put in a tool like this.

Carolynne Heron [14:12]
Yeah absolutely yeah and I'm sure everyone can appreciate that you typically have the same Excel spreadsheet and every desktop has their own Excel and have it in their own way. Everyone's saying it's also you know backing up on the system and the servers are getting overloaded, you think: why wouldn't we bring it all together into the same database and create the right narrative if that makes sense for multi-users. It's pretty awesome.

Olivia Bushe [14:44]
Yes, it's great to get that single source of the truth. We're going to move on now and talk about a FlowForma but we called the Acorn Approach. The Acorn Approach is what we would see as best practice here at FlowForma in order to encourage people to innovate and increase adoption and to roll out the FlowForma tool across your business.
Very often people tell us this is all well and good but I don't know where to start. You would always encourage business people to start with the process that we would call the obvious process. Usually, there is going to be one real pain point in the organization that is causing your prostate problems because it's a paper trail Things are getting lost, and delays are happening. This process is one that you can quickly see the tangible benefits of digitizing it. We would say start with this process get it up and running left the organization, see the impact of digitizing it, get the buy-in, and look to broaden the use of the tool to other processes in the business afterward. Carolynne, is that an approach you used at Morgan?

Carolynne Heron [16:22]
Ok so a couple of things we did start digitizing our safety forms and we noticed that was an easy way through some of our forms but I have to admit with FlowForma, we started with the most complex, which is very courageous of us, but largely it was because a local organization, Pontem Innovations came to us and said this is a great solution for you and so that helped us I just ripped the band-aid and said let's do it. Onboarding, the whiteboard was just a beast and we couldn't continue the way we were, and it didn't make sense and I couldn't wait for the rest of the organization to catch up, and then through HR we influenced change throughout the rest of the organization

Olivia Bushe [17:31]
I suppose, Carolynne, listening to what you are saying there you just ripped the band-aid off. To me that sounds like you are an innovative champion within your organization a little bit like myself do you want to see change quickly. I imagine that's why the change happen so quickly because there was a champion like yourself to push things forward?

Carolynne Heron [18:04]
Well unfortunately I don't know that I would give myself five stars on the speed at which we progress because our organization was under so much pressure and it wasn't up to me to get this to work because I needed the manager to get the buy-in. So I needed her to get the buying and I needed her to be the lead change agent because it's her team that has to use the tool and it took almost a year but that wasn’t FlowForma it was largely because we were hiring hundreds of people during a pandemic in a very challenging labor market and so we had all these other major roadblocks and then I’m saying ‘get it done, automate, build this new process process’ and that takes time because you gotta work out all the bugs, and make sure this all makes sense and it kept changing because you're dealing with human beings and the data changes, we couldn’t just pause it and start off where we left off because there’s already been a hundred people being hired and they were no longer relevant for the tool. So there were a lot of stops and starts and pauses, but I'm pleased to report that as a February 1 of 22 we went live with it with the team, and now that manager is a subject matter expert and she is now quite picky, she wants it to be perfect, she wants us to make tweaks when we’re live. The other day she came to my office and she was frustrated at the pace but the team were going at mid-February and I was like ‘remember where you were? It took you a year!’ and so it’s quite exciting to see the evolution and now we have a number of departments within our organization that are working on much simpler processes which I think will leverage the corporate license which is nice, and help share that cost and make us better as an organization.

Olivia Bushe [20:05]
I think that is really interesting. You kind of talked about how you had some resistance within the company and digitization is really all about change and mostly as people, we don’t like change, it’s unknown, and it's interesting to me how you addressed that you got the person who didn't like change to lead the project.

Carolynne Heron [20:34]
I think it's the best way to do it because people can be reluctant to let go of what you know it's the perfect change cycle it's the perfect way to grieve, we’re scared, people taking stuff away and so in lining up my manager and working very closely with FlowForma and Pontem, our local solutions provider, there was trust that was built up. And she doesn't need to know all the back-end because there was that no code and we do have Pontem, our experts from a technical standpoint, but she knows what the outcomes are, she said ‘I just want this to go’ and so over Christmas, her team was working on inputting all the data and I told her this is a leadership milestone for you and you need to remember this story because she was quite reluctant and now I think she is a champion which is great for so many reasons.

Olivia Bushe [21:35]
It's a great success story it's a great turnaround story. So Lindsay if we look at eml payments What approach did you take how did you get started was it the Acorn Approach I feel like it was quite a complicated process as well?

Lindsay Evans [21:50]
Yeah, in hindsight I would have liked to go for a simpler process but it was a needs-driven process, this was what we have to do right now and like I said before it was a timing issue it was the right time to bring in automation and automated processes across the board so that was a major driver for that. I think when we started it, we expected it to be much more simple, and the more we learned about how much we could automate and all the sophistication within FlowForma we realized that we could make things bigger and bigger so we could add that or we could have that things kept changing and we could add more in it and I think our initial scope was quite narrow, we thought so this is great we can knock this out quite soon but the more we kind of realized that we could do we wanted to make sure it could cover all our bases throughout the business.

Olivia Bushe [21:49]
Yeah and we do see that a lot, that's the beauty of the tool I mean we do see a lot of customers that have a very simple process, and then when they get to training and onboarding they've realized the scope of complex processes that FlowForma can handle and I think I were going to do this and this and this as well. There is the Acorn Approach but we have some customers for example one customer in the UK, a construction customer who went live with 120 processes at once because that’s the way they wanted to do it - and that was in an 8-week timeframe but that's the way they wanted to do it - they wanted to do it all at once which can be overwhelming for some companies but they wanted to do it in that time frame but we do often see when companies have a couple of processes and then they see the tool and how easy it is to use all these other ideas spring up, so what you're saying there Lindsay we see quite a lot

Lindsay Evans [23:54]
Yeah no, we've definitely seen that as well because our onboarding process sits within 8 or 9 different teams, every time I get off one of the calls I get a message being like you know ‘we have this process can FlowForma do that?’ It has spiraled a thought process within other teams to be like you know how can we move away from that manual process? Seeing her simple FlowForma is from a user perspective they are like well why wouldn't we do it? So we completed our big one and coming from that, that two weeks ago go we put in another 6 and we have another 5 to come from that so it exploding with the visibility that it's getting throughout the organization and it's going across regions as well so I think getting the one over the line and getting the buy-in and getting people using it is kind of key and then things go from there. You see the real potential across the board.

Olivia Bushe [24:56]
Yeah and I think Carolynne you have like four or five processes live now with FlowForma, Cam from Pontem was over last week And we were discussing your processes that were up and running and live, so just that everyone knows Pontem are our Canadian partner. So it would be great to hear your before and after I know some of the projects are quite new so you wouldn't have the metrics around them, but I'm assuming you still have some sort of gut instinct on how long it takes to get a process deployed? Or how long it takes to get approved from beginning to end since before you had FlowForma, so it would be great if you could share some early results that you have seen with the audience.

Carolynne Heron [25:44]
Sure and it is very early but we do recognize the speed at which the information is going in and especially then the output. And I know I keep focusing on this but the real-time reporting is a real gem and I have one story my manager the week we went live was talking to me and she was like oh well the way the reports work we're going to have to pull it into email and do this and I had to stop her and say well hold on we're not going to do everything the way we used to and that's the beauty of this. Your team does it need to stop and take 45 minutes to format an email. Your customers get to see it in real-time and that's the whole point of this that shift in thinking and I'm sure there's still so much low-hanging fruit that we're not aware of because it's so new for the team but I have no doubt that we're moving in the right direction and heads up for people thinking of doing this as the system is processing it kind of stalls on the screen, it might look like it's a lag and it might feel like it slow, but they're not remembering, how quickly we forget how slow it was when we had to manually do everything. We had 10, 20 or 50 people entering in all the information and now we have one source of information and a single source of Truth. There's a whole bunch there and I wish I had time to study the ROI, But we're quickly forgetting the old way and we wanna improve it more To become more efficient and detailed So hopefully that helps.

Olivia Bushe [27:38]
Yeah, I think that's a great story to tell and I think that's true the continuous improvement journey just keeps going, you get better and better and you just want to improve it more, I mean Lindsay what do you think, What would be the notable changes and improvements that you see coming into play?

Lindsay Evans [28:02]
Yeah so similar to Caroline we are in the early stages so we are just starting to see those report results coming out I think the reporting has definitely been key for us as well, being able to see where different onboarding of clients is at the different stages. You can kind of see where our process is falling down. You can kind of adjust it quite quickly. You can do it in real-time and I think being able to track changes and see bottlenecks has really been a good change for us. We can speak our own processors as well and I think it kind of gives every team a bit of autonomy to be able to track and change. You can see that they are the ones dealing with it there is not as much chasing going on between people and nagging and you know all of that So I think that's been really positive as well.

Olivia Bushe [28:59]
Yeah, the process I think looks after the execution which is quite nice. You are not having to chase someone the system does that for you if something's overdue so it gives all the reminders you're not having to do that yourself it sort of takes care of it. That's another thing that's kind of hard to quantify the benefits of but you're not spending a week chasing somebody for a piece of information that you need it’s just right there in the system.

Lindsay Evans [29:30]
Yeah, exactly and I think it's a lot less easy to drop the ball because if something is assigned to you you can go in and see it easily and tick that off where is you're not really looking at an email and saying I'll get back to that later. There is more accountability to it which is great.

Olivia Bushe [29:49]
Yeah and I think that fits in with the times that we're in right now, we all know that remote working is a big thing. So we've been in a pandemic for 2 years and most companies are keeping a remote working or hybrid working policy, but, when people are working from home they need that structure. So process automation in the system gives them that structure for the day lets them know what their tasks are. A lot of people prior to the pandemic had no experience working from home it's not an easy change. Especially for people just coming into the workplace. One feedback that we've had from our customers is that it gives structure to remote working Lindsay you've probably seen this yourself with your emails Instead of thinking about that you have to get back and mark that the system gives you structure for your workday?

Lindsay Evans [30:57]
Yeah and I think everyone's really been enjoying that it's a quick check and you're not really bogged down with emails That's been really interesting to see especially over this transition to remote working for sure.

Olivia Bushe [31:18]
Okay, so we talked a little bit with both of you about having a champion in the business. We often find that with our most successful projects, they begin when there’s an understanding of the benefits at the C-Level around implementing a digital transformation project, so it’s a strategic initiative when its implemented from the C-level and they understand the benefits that they can get from a solution like this and then they champion that. Do you agree that that’s really important to have?

Carolynne Heron [31:57]
Absolutely, I believe that we have to overcommunicate at the top and then drive that up and down, sideways, talk about it, you always need to give the employees a head start on what the vision is and have them understand the bigger picture, and then keep talking about it and that will help drive change and drive that 1% marginal gain or innovation, and get people thinking bigger and understanding why we are going in a direction. We just did an engagement survey that just closed two weeks ago and it's never far off from the communications side that they want to hear more and more from corporate they want to hear more and more about our vision. We always feel like we overstate things - especially when it comes to change, and we feel that once you do that it really drives your change agents that start to carry your story and share it with the next person who may be reluctant to hear the message, so yeah I think it’s absolutely foundational for successful implementation and buy-in.

Lindsay Evans [33:12]
Yeah, I would completely agree with that and we had it driven from the top level, the C-level, for them, like I said, with all the companies coming together, it was always at the forefront of their mind, ‘how do we keep business as usual going’ and ‘how do we maintain consistency and all that. So, there was always this focus for us from the top down which really did help drive it, but I think also what helped us was the agility of it - you’re not coming in with a really rigid process and saying ‘this is how we now do it, go for it’ I think because there’s that agility it allows for that collaborative approach you know you can say we’re all stakeholders, we’re all building it together and it will adapt over time to be suitable for everyone and I think that helped get that buy-in as well, and definitely made it easier for us in the long run, I mean it is trickier you know when you’re kind of changing the system, the process all the time to suit those needs. I think at the end of it it’s going to be worth it when you really have this robust approach that everyone has individually bought into as well, but I think starting from the top down for us made all the difference.

Olivia Bushe [34:25]
Yeah, so what would be your advice to the listeners today who are considering a process automation tool, I was talking to a lady yesterday who was just starting to investigate the tools out there, she hasn’t brought it to C-Level at this stage because she said they’d be more receptive to her coming with a solution and outlining the business case and the benefits. So she’s at the early stages, so for someone like that what would be your advice to them?

Lindsay Evans [34:57]
I think potentially, and it’s not what we did, but I think starting with the smaller wins where you are picking off a number of smaller processes which are quicker to implement, easy to use, and then the value of that is really obvious at the start. I think that can really help get the buy-in from everyone, you know showing the visibility from the top but also increasing productivity and making day-to-day jobs easier. Potentially starting on those smaller ones and building on them from there would probably be one of the things I’d suggest. I think part of that is that there’s this fear when you start to build out these processes, you know, letting go of the old ones, is there going to be a lot of duplication of effort? Am I going to be just copying and pasting things from my Excel sheet into this and doubling what I’m doing and stuff… so I think getting those smaller ones out there, where people can see actually, that's not what this is about, it's about seeing the benefits at this level and across the board as well. So I think potentially starting smaller than we did would be good.

Carolynne Heron [36:10]
I agree. I completely agree, and I would suggest, you know when you look at a process and you're on autopilot you don't really realize how many steps and how important they are. You know when you go digital it takes a lot of effort and brain power to eliminate maybe redundant steps that actually don't make sense but it's just the way we’ve always done it, and so, to Lindsay's point: had we started with something less cumbersome and had just got into maybe some good training and habits, on tearing down the workflow and doing the process math and really recognize whats the point of this, why do we do what we’re doing, and then rip it apart. And that takes a lot. I think it’s changing the way we think, and so that would be a great way to get ready for FlowForma, to help to start to integrate it into the organization is just to start training people to start tearing stuff down and to take off their blinders right?

Olivia Bushe [37:20]
Yeah, so if that's too overwhelming, do what you both have done and just get started and then refine it and refine it and fix it as you go, but I do think it's a really important point that there may be steps that you have to not do at all, just because it was the way you always did it and it doesn't make sense anymore because the company has evolved. So I think that’s some great advice. We’re going to move on and talk about digitizing for outcomes and value, so obviously, the end game for people implementing a tool like FlowForma is to see tangible benefits and value, so I mean, you’ve already covered a lot of the value you’re seeing from a tool Like FlowForma, I guess is there just any final points you’d like to highlight?

Carolynne Heron [38:10]
I like the way we have empowered businesspeople, I do see an outcome here is empowering the team. Because I do think if we can remove roadblocks and barriers to how they do their work it’ll impact them in so many ways, it’ll impact how they perform, their level of engagement, hopefully, their innovation, and with what they do with the time we’ve just saved them, to make us a better company. So it all links up to competitive advantage and all that, but I do think from where I sit that the empowerment it creates within my employee base and how they do their work, how easy we make it is going to drive a bunch of value. It’s just intangible right now, it's hard to explain what that looks like but I’m excited to see what tomorrow brings for digitalization.

Olivia Bushe [39:04]
Yeah, so we see a lot of that, we’ve had companies who have saved 6,000 hours of administration by digitizing 5 key processes, so that’s maybe a whole person who is getting their time freed up, especially in construction we talk about man-hours and you know, we’ve had over 700 man-hours saved by joint ventures in automating one process. The other side of things that we see is sustainability, so you know, we’re saving paper and with paper, there’s often cost, so there’s the cost of moving that paper from location to location so there's a cost-saving there as well as a sustainability message - you’re right those things are very hard to quantify at the start, you just know that they’re gone.

Lindsay Evans [40:00]
Yeah, I think that a lot of it is the timesaving and the structure that it gives, so we have a meeting every week about our process, and it's at whatever stage and you know even those meetings are becoming far more productive because of their structure, we know exactly what’s to come, the information coming is consistent so we’re actually moving through those stages a lot quicker because those conversations are facilitated much better, we’re not going through the emails and stuff like that again, so I think just facilitating all those discussions those approvals and all of that has saved us a huge amount of time… again, not quantifiable yet, but I’d be really interested to see as we roll it out further the metrics that we get in. And we’ve kind of started tracking it every month of how many things were approved and in what timeframe over these periods. I think we only have about three months of these metrics at the moment but we can already see the difference it’s made and I can only imagine how much more that's going to improve once it's actually running exactly how we want it to.

Olivia Bushe [41:14]
Super. Okay, so that’s great I mean some real values that I think most companies would be looking for there. So we’re coming to the end of our time… I just want to thank you ladies for your time today that was a great conversation and it's great to see the value that FlowForma is bringing to your organization - so thank you very much.

Carolynne Heron [41:34]
Thank you it’s been a pleasure.

Lindsay Evans [41:35]
Thank you, yep, an absolute pleasure.

Olivia Bushe [41:39]
Just before we wrap up I just want to give everyone a quick reminder that you can book a one-to-one call with any of our process experts, or, sign up for a free personalized demo or a free 14-day trial on our website flowforma.com and our experts are more than happy to help steer your digital transformation in the right direction. So just reach out and we’d love to help you with that. Thank you everyone for joining us today, thanks again Lindsay and Carolynne. I hope you enjoyed it, thank you, everyone.




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